One day, the parish decided to go on a picnic, but it started raining in the morning. The parishioners with neurotic disorders blamed themselves, saying the rain was because they lacked faith. In contrast, the parishioners with personality disorders blamed the priest, saying it was because he didn't pray. I was drained comforting the people with neurotic disorders, and the people with personality disorders hounded me and wore me out. The best kind of person is the parishioner who says this: "Father, getting rained on while taking a look around is fun too, so let's just head out." - From Hong Seong-nam's psychology essay "Love yourself to the end"
I read "Love yourself to the end." I read it in one breath. The healing firepower of its sentences and narrative was astonishing, and I fell into it like reading a "psychological martial-arts novel." A person can save oneself this sharply. A person can save others this fiercely. Priest Hong Seong-nam proves with his life that the paths of disgrace and healing are not different.
For example, worldly language like "When anger surges, hit a sandbag," "Pretend to pray and curse alone," "When you're depressed, play hwatu," and "Don't chicken out with a timid heart" shines a cool headlight into the valley of a dark, cold soul. It suddenly occurred to me. Just as Jesus chose hot-tempered Peter and doubting Thomas as disciples, calling Hong Seong-nam—who in his youth explored even monks and shamans—to be a priest was The Divine Move.
The biblical phrase that appears so often, "Do not be afraid," was ultimately "Don't chicken out!" He himself lived on the brink with alcoholism and lethargy, but "resurrected" through counseling. For habitual obsessive patients tormented by anxiety and self-contempt, I met the "fiery" priest Hong Seong-nam.
In a world where patients with personality disorders who only "blame others" and patients with neurosis who only "blame themselves" are mixed together, he lived teaching discernment with combative humor.
- Does living as a priest suit your constitution?
"It's heavy. A priest must embrace all parishioners. You need a big capacity for love. My junior priest says even when parishioners give him trouble, they look cute to him. I disliked the parishioners I disliked to the end (laughs). I found patients more comfortable than parishioners. Since you can't please everyone, I quit being a parish priest early and live as a counseling priest who writes books."
The priest's homily, "If you hate someone, you can hate them to the end," was so unconventional that during his time as a parish priest he was even called a "child of the devil." As patients with wounded hearts were healed and people flocked to the church, the protests and commotion quieted down. He himself, while living as a priest, went to the brink of suicide from guilt, and said that after counseling he "was reborn" as a "fine me."
- Who comes to your life counseling office?
"About 100 military chaplains serving in the armed forces knock on my door. I am their counseling priest."
- What problems do they bring?
"They all think they are unqualified. The sad thing is, those who are tormented thinking 'I have a problem' are decent people. The truly problematic people say, 'I have no problem at all.' Those patients with personality disorders sacrifice those with gentle hearts."
- I understand you also wandered in your youth, walking a zigzag path. You said you frequented churches, shamans, and temples.
"There was always a question in my heart. Who am I? How should I live? While wandering during adolescence, I happened to enter a church and found rest. It truly felt like I had met a "new family." But the rest was brief. I couldn't bear my own sinful nature. I wanted to be holy and perfect, but even feeling sexual desire when I saw a pretty woman tormented me. No one told me anything, so I drove myself hard, cut off the church, and ran away into the world."
There was no sage anywhere in the world who could calm the tyrant of condemnation rampaging inside the heart. Monks and pastors alike only spouted words floating in the air. Seeing the fires of hell every night, he went as far as the cliff of schizophrenia. The military gave him peace.
"It was an infantry unit, so running day and night cleared out the idle thoughts. Only animal nature remained, and around discharge all I had left was the thought of making a pile of money. I was completely remade as a person (laughs)."
From a blameless life to a wealthy one, Hong Seong-nam turned his life 180 degrees, and all he gained from his youthful flailing was hemorrhoids. Why did God make some humans so they only surrender after scraping through all the odd corners of the world with their own anuses?
"A fortuneteller my mother took me to told me this. That I was born with the knack of a shaman and would make a pile of money at 35, surpassing Baegun Dosasa. I served that fortuneteller as my teacher, and all I got from training in a freezing room in the dead of winter was hemorrhoids (laughs)."
The higher one's ideals, the more cynical and easily swayed they are, and it comforted me that he, like me, had not missed a single rough-and-tumble happening.
- How did you get out of the clutches of fate?
"In the end, the one up there couldn't stand the sight and appeared. Early morning on Dec. 25, 1980. They call it a vision. I thought people were hawking a God without pastors or priests, but I was wrong. There was a wide field with crosses, and one of the crosses shone a bright light.
The one hanging on the cross asked, "Do you love me…? Do you love me?"
It was so warm. It was Jesus… Well, you could have shown up a bit earlier."
In 1981, after graduating from a regular university and completing military service, he entered the seminary in his mid-20s as if spellbound. He said he thought it was a place where only angels lived, but it turned out to be a high-level military academy.
- What was the hardest thing?
"When praying or eating, having someone I disliked sit next to me was the most dreadful. But that was the biggest thing I gained from seminary training. Alone before God, you become holy. But the moment you meet someone you dislike, your bottom shows. The person I hated was the one who made me humble. I realized that around the time I was ordained. That the person I disliked most resembled me the most. Then do you become mature after training? No, you revert (laughs)."
He said that even if you revert, it is better than not going through the process.
- Is it okay to keep hating someone you hate?
"Inside a person's heart are the ideal self and the real self. I am the real self now, and if you hate that self, you will suffer. Psychotherapy is about seeing the child within yourself. It is about accepting the immature and wounded self. But if you only look at God and tell people to become believers who fit that will, they come to hate themselves. You need to lower the bar a bit.
Do not do things beyond your own pace. Do not force yourself to embrace the people you hate or dislike. Say you can't. The mind is like a rubber band—if you drive it too hard and it gets taut, you become a neurotic patient, and if it snaps, you become a schizophrenia patient. Conversely, if it stretches too much, you can't return to everyday life. Sometimes you need to allow yourself to break and be selfish."
He said that Jesus, including in the Sermon on the Mount, taught happiness that benefits oneself, but under the influence of Stoicism it became too solemn.
He himself said that because the religion he learned by rote did not give an answer to "how should one live," he stacked boxes of novels and read only those for five years in seminary. Not in the Heart Sutra nor the Bible but in novels, he properly took in the vomit of human emotion spewed while rounding the curves of love and savagery.
- When you look closely, many people suffer from bipolarity. It's not easy to maintain the average of emotions.
"I also walk the extremes. But extreme and multiple tendencies are not necessarily bad. The more polarized the range of perception, the more creativity explodes. The larger the value of experience, the wider the boundaries of acceptance, and with a broad spectrum, dementia does not come. When you become uniform, that's living like a zombie.
You know the story of the "prodigal son" in the Bible, right? The older son lived exemplary and safely in the father's arms. The younger son took his inheritance early, left, went through all sorts of trials, and returned humble. But while the younger became healthy after experiencing both goodness and evil, the older became nothing more than a narrow-minded old man jealous of his returning brother.
When you see a criminal, you should also think, 'If I had grown up in that person's environment, I might have done that—how unfortunate,' and if you only say, 'Just isolate them,' your scope of understanding is narrow. That's why I rename the "prodigal son" in the Bible the "experienced son" (laughs)."
A priest with a head of white hair wore a Roman collar and smiled gently. This "experienced son" lived a life that crossed lines all his life, and as compensation he gained not "holiness" but "the freedom to refuse holiness." He actively eggs on his junior priests who sometimes come to him, unable to overcome guilt, to "sue God for putting out a defective product."
For those suffocating from only "my fault," Priest Hong's words to "blame the Creator" become a breathing hole.
- Do you also blame God?
"Of course. I press, asking why I was made this way. I'm a creature, so I loudly demand the manufacturer take responsibility. That's healthy. I also say everything I want to Jesus. In the passage where he scolds Peter, who sinks while walking on water, for having weak faith, I argue back hard. Jesus was so strict that he couldn't get married (laughs)."
He said if you square off in prayer, the answer will come vividly. I see—within this universe, the only great and safe being who would accept my "blame of others" was God… The more you say everything you want to say, the more "self-hatred" disappears, he said. Perhaps what we need now is not "confession" but a "counseling priest."
- In your painful days, your heart opened as if by magic to the questions of a counseling priest you met with little expectation. "If you have something to say, go ahead and say it," "Say everything you want to say," "If you have anything more to say at the end, say it." I was moved reading the dialogue in the book. I thought it resembled an interview.
"'If you have something to say, say it'… I was dumbfounded. I thought of a counseling priest as akin to a shaman, so I only thought, 'I paid the fee, so you give the divination result.' But something amazing happened. When he laid out the space by saying 'go ahead and talk,' my inner words burst out like diarrhea. Like water pouring from a full bucket.
Those words revealed all of me. The me I had thought was a gentle and good shepherd was in fact the opposite. I liked to step forward, was headstrong, and liked cameras. Removing the boulder called complex and raising the buried flower—that was counseling."
- I have never seen anyone explain the heart in language as simple and primal as yours. For example, that swearing is like defecating through the mouth, or that if you suppress anger you get psychological constipation and lose your sense of humor…
"Excretion is important. Whether a child or an adult, everyone laughs when poop-and-pee talk comes up. There's no smile on a holy face. Just defecate through your mouth. If you hold back uncomfortable emotions, you feel icky and pitiful like a puppy needing to poop."
He lamented that Catholic culture still has a depressive mode, a funeral mode, turning churches into mortuaries.
- Were you born with the boldness to say everything without chickening out?
"(Waving his hand) I was a chicken. I was born timid. But if you look closely, the representative chicken was Jesus. In the Garden of Gethsemane, he cried, begging God to save him. After that he became a tough guy. That time of being a chicken matters. You have to properly chicken out to get out of the cage."
- My timid heart makes my chest pound all the time. How did you get out of the cage?
"When I faced demolition gangsters. It's called the Battle of Gajwa (laughs). When Gajwa-dong Church became a redevelopment site, I fought a war alone. I experienced a lot then. I held out for five years, confronting gangsters in a place where all the houses had been bulldozed and only weeds ran wild. The neighborhood swarmed with mosquitoes, rats, cats, and stray dogs.
The gangsters threatened to set the church on fire, so I chickened out and couldn't sleep. Anxiety, anger, and depression came as a set. It was so scary that at first I got skin allergies, and then my bones and flesh weakened so much that even a fall would break my ribs. I prayed to be saved, but as always, heaven didn't answer, and higher-ups only said there was no one to send in my place.
Cornered, my venom rose. First I thought, 'Let's not be humiliated.' If I failed here, I wouldn't be able to face my junior priests or the patients who had received depression counseling from me… Let's win and get out of here; let's give up being a priest who loves and respects enemies. They're "people mad for money," so let's meet them with "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Let's declare war on them."
From then on, he said, he read war books instead of spiritual ones. Reading, he found that victorious generals had habits in common.
- Winning habits…
"First, they eat well. Soldiers at the front eat properly. And you have to dress well. I dressed in a suit every day like a uniform and took walks around the trash field. I shined my shoes, shaved clean, and slicked my hair back neatly with gel like Hitler. And once a week I went downtown and ate like a noble. At dawn I blasted classical music in the alleys where the gangsters were.
What the opponent wants is for me to collapse. So I took care of myself more confidently. Every night I hit the sandbag and swung a wooden sword, beheading the gangsters in my mind. I will send at least one of those gangsters to prison… In the end, I dug into the redevelopment cartel forces, built public opinion, and secured proper compensation. It turns out I'm good at fighting (laughs)."
In the process, he said he saw to the point of disgust the vulgarity of those enslaved by money. A son took his mother's compensation money, and a son-in-law starved his mother-in-law for money. Money was the scariest monster.
- When money farms humans, there's no way to win. You also said there are vile breeders and healthy nurturers in every field. What do you mean?
"A vile breeder raises a child as a tool. They usually call them 'my baby.' They instill fear so the child can't stand alone and make them dependent. A breeder believes their children must exist for their own happiness. It's a common counseling case. There were parents who called their doctor son living far away every dawn. Demanding, 'Take a look at this, take a look at that.' That son ended up tormented between his wife and parents and became mentally ill.
It's usually egocentric people who only "blame others," those with personality disorders, who become breeder parents. Locking them up and gaslighting them so they can't have new experiences is just like North Korea. While being bred by parents, the child gradually becomes a self-torturing neurotic patient. Healthy nurturers, on the other hand, raise children to be independent."
He said the personality of a desirable adult raised healthily is a rascal who gets angry, sulks, laughs, and jokes.
- Are you a rascal?
"I have multiple personalities. My words can be sharp and playful (laughs). I have a bit of celebrity disease too."
- I bounce between the extremes of a child and a superhuman (laughs). My "ideal self" also seems to scold the "real me" like a breeder. I live trying hard not to end with a contamination narrative, if I can help it.
"(Gazing gently) For 30 years of counseling I've looked into the child inside people's hearts. If I may advise, it's okay to live a bit contaminated."
- Contaminated… Won't that become miserable?
"If you feel too much fastidiousness about life's contamination, you get psychological atopy. City people fuss about cleanliness and get atopy, right? It's like going to a monastery or cloistered convent to avoid sin and getting worse. Fastidiousness is dangerous. Indigenous people living in remote places are healthy even in dirty environments.
Priest Lee Tae-seok, a saint of South Sudan, liked living with the poor in the backcountry. When Priest Lee appeared, even people fighting with guns would set them down and talk for a moment. He was happier in South Sudan than in Seoul. What is happiness? Being near neighbors who need you is happiness. You don't become miserable because you're contaminated. You may die from overwork, but you don't commit suicide."
If you look into the surface of unbearable misery and guilt, he said what you meet at the bottom is not the "original sin of disobedience" but "parental abuse."
- Is parental abuse the root of all evil?
"Yes. If you study criminal psychology, most criminals either lacked parents or were abused. When asked a criminal who murdered a family for no reason, 'Why did you kill them?' they said, 'I was angry at a family who laughed and chatted even while living in a rooftop room.' 'No one cares about me.' He was someone abused throughout his growth years.
Stalin also came from an abusive home. He attended seminary and was ostracized by nobles' sons, then dropped out. Later he killed people who resembled his father—the bishops who had gone to seminary. If you look closely, many tragedies in human and world history begin with "parental abuse."
He said the second family that heals the wounds received in the first family is religion. To escape the abused me, he said, do not cling to unchangeable parents; establish your relationship with God the Creator with confidence.
"Sue God. If he created you, he should take responsibility."
- If he created, he should take responsibility…
"When I say that, the audience splits like the Red Sea (laughs). Into pro-Hong (Hong Seong-nam) and anti-Hong. I think it's not good if the distance between God and me is too far. To get close, it's good to be a bit messy. So I teach people how to pick a fight with God. "Aren't you almighty? Then why are you like this?" I egg them on to nag God."
- What draws the line between blasphemy and intimacy?
"Whether you know the Father's love. If you believe in that love, you won't treat the Father like a stepfather. Jesus did that too. "I will no longer call you servants, but friends." The disciples didn't kneel before Jesus; they reclined on couches and spoke intimately. Kneeling is the posture of a defendant on trial, a medieval slave. If your child knelt every time to talk to their mother, would you like that? Of course not."
As if determined, he again objected to a biblical interpretation. He said that in modern times, Jesus' words in the Gospels to find the one lost sheep instead of the ninety-nine should be revised.
- Is it right to abandon the one lost sheep?
"If that sheep is a wicked one, yes, abandon it. For the ninety-nine ordinary sheep. A patient with a personality disorder is an unrepentant perpetrator. People who resent the world, their parents, and their children while slyly arguing, 'Why don't you make me happy?' turn those around them into mental patients.
But our society now is a paradise for such patients with personality disorders. Perpetrators make a big noise as if they are victims. For such people, confiscating their assets is more effective than sending them to a detention center. For them, money is life. What happens if you put up with that one wicked sheep and treat it well? It eats up the ninety-nine small animals. If you don't cut off the flow of money, they starve the weak to death. I experienced all of that on the redevelopment site."
The redevelopment site made him a warrior. Listening to him, I was reminded of the drama "The Fiery Priest," which was popular a few years ago. The protagonist, whose body is that of a former special forces soldier but whose heart is a priest's, roamed a corrupt city like a fish in water. The priest sensitive to justice clearly distinguished between mercy and mercilessness and smashed the villains' ribs without guilt.
- Pardon me, when do you feel ecstasy?
"I'm happiest when I make elderly grandmothers and grandfathers laugh on lecture stages around the country. I travel all over like a peddler to places where people say they need me."
- When did you first feel you were a shepherd?
"At Jamsil Church, my first assignment after being ordained at 34, the elderly called me 'our priest, our priest' and looked at me warmly. Then all the hostility inside me melted away. To repay that love, I gave the laying-on-of-hands prayer endlessly. When I laid hands and prayed, all the energy in my body drained, and when I returned to the rectory at night I would collapse, completely discharged. Ah, I am a shepherd."
I asked the 72-year-old priest if he still trains his body.
- Are the wooden sword and sandbag still with you?
"Of course. When you get scared, the opponent grows. I still carry a wooden sword in the car. To take it out if a quarrel starts (laughs). I also hit the sandbag. When I pound it while thinking of the bad guys, I feel relieved and my appetite returns. Psychotherapists also recommend letting yourself get angry freely for 30 minutes a day. For 30 minutes a day, go to the bathroom and, like defecating, curse alone and throw punches.
If you curl uncomfortable emotions up in your belly, that becomes cancer. You have to let them out. Jesus and John the Baptist didn't hold back their curses. He called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs. So curse while pretending to pray (laughs)."
- It feels like a miracle that disgrace and healing meet as one inside you.
"It wasn't a miracle that came on its own. It wasn't free. God responded to my ceaseless pursuit of a path. But the compensation was a bit more than I expected. I'm grateful."
As the wind pushes a golfer's ball trained on a sun-scorched sand lot, it seemed God had given him distinctive empathy cells as a gift for a body scratched against every edge of the world. "People who have lived too smoothly can't be good counselors. I'm neither a Ph.D. nor anything, but with a rough-and-tumble life textbook I earned the qualification to read hearts."
So the conclusion I reached was simple. I must nurture myself to the end.
- How can we love ourselves to the end?
"'My mother still nags me. 'You never finish anything to the end.' As a child I shrank back, but now I rebut. If I had followed through to the end and done well, I'd have become a professor, retired, and probably be mooching off my mother by now. I was indecisive and wandered, but because I did not give up nurturing myself to the end, I now live responding to the needs of the world.
If you want to keep nurturing yourself to the end without giving up, treat yourself well. So you can fight well on the battlefield called the world, feed yourself good things, read delicious books, and enjoy good spaces. I also tell young priests to fill their spaces with music and the scent of coffee and to hang even a small painting in their room. You need to replenish your strength like that to face the tyrant inside and the monsters outside. May you be reborn as a strong warrior who protects the child within you to the end!"